tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6584068046573737479.post1914563442444918948..comments2023-05-15T06:53:04.506-04:00Comments on The Jesus Paradigm: Gospel:Uncut part 1Natehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13081425114154607112noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6584068046573737479.post-57566442836140620262008-12-02T22:48:00.000-05:002008-12-02T22:48:00.000-05:00I'm afraid I have to give you a pat Baptist answer...I'm afraid I have to give you a pat Baptist answer on what we need to be saved from: sin. <BR/><BR/>As far as it not being in our power to work for good: It is in our power to work for things that look good. And it is in our power to work for good when the standard for good is something other than the righteousness of God(again, using pat phrases- I have nothing better at the moment). <BR/><BR/>But the good that we cannot work for is the eradication of sin. Not as an individual action or set of actions, but as a predisposition to exalt ourselves and despise God. This is what Jesus on the cross worked: the removal from man of the responsibility to eradicate sin. Without man's help.<BR/><BR/>The implication I'm trying to get at is that the good that can be worked by you and I is not, well...BAD...it just isn't powerful enough to deal with the real problem. It's not that there can't be joy, enjoyment, love, inner peace, justice etc, it's just that's not the ultimate need...to be delivered from sin is. Because honestly, what frame of reference do we have for "good?" Our definition of good is based on our experience. So of course we can experience what we have subjectively defined as good. But the gospel suggests that there is something we've been separated from- a good that we can't even begin to fathom because it's so outside our knowing, immersed and conditioned as we are in our environment. Something that can't be achieved, that must be given from "off the grid." <BR/><BR/>The snowflakes will be experienced a supremely more glorious way, because of what is about to be restored.Natehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13081425114154607112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6584068046573737479.post-57413583964815301832008-12-02T21:26:00.000-05:002008-12-02T21:26:00.000-05:00I'm sorry I have to reneg a little on the last com...I'm sorry I have to reneg a little on the last comment I left. What I really mean to say is that I don't fully understand where you're coming from. What I don't understand is what we need to be saved from and why, and why it is that you think that it is not in our power to work for good?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14139586718507355968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6584068046573737479.post-25085753527193020432008-12-02T16:32:00.000-05:002008-12-02T16:32:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14139586718507355968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6584068046573737479.post-56646955955448674232008-12-01T21:43:00.000-05:002008-12-01T21:43:00.000-05:00Very well expressed, I must say, you bring up some...Very well expressed, I must say, you bring up some great thoughts. I'll try to respond briefly to a couple:<BR/><BR/>First of all, this is right on the money:<BR/><BR/>"Yet you are right when you say that nothing we gain does last forever. But it is wrong to say that this makes it less valuable. It is only less valuable when we use it to delude ourselves that we will last forever."<BR/><BR/>Couldn't have said it better. <BR/><BR/>"And if we put so much stock in any being or thing beyond ourselves, presuming that that being, that person, has already done it all, said it all, and we only need to accept it, then what does that do to our sense of responsibility?"<BR/><BR/>I'm assuming you're responding here to my assumption about the finished work of Jesus Christ, and one's trust in it. This is the great offense of the gospel, of the cross. The idea that there is a solution to sin, to suffering, that takes places without our help, implying that you and I need do nothing in order to deal with sin, be forgiven, obtain merit, garner approval, "make the world a better place," etc, is far to libertine for most because it raises just the question you have: what about responsibility? In its raw purity it provokes backlash in the human psyche: "Well I'm not just going to sit around, look at all that's wrong with the world! There's work to be done." <BR/><BR/>But that is indeed what I'm saying, that it is finished, that all the work we could do to these ends is futile, because the problem against which I would be working is actually an ineradicable sickness, not just a set of distasteful or unsightly circumstances. So it took a sovereign act of God.<BR/><BR/>Of course that begs the question: So do we do nothing? Of course not. Just that the purpose toward which we now work is different. <BR/><BR/>"If I only have a few moments on this earth, then I am impelled, ...to do the best I can here. And the best I can do is very often to see it, to appreciate it, to interact with it in every unique moment. I cannot help but wonder why anyone could ever want more than this."<BR/><BR/>"You’ve just replaced all of the possessions that other people use with Jesus, yet both are operating on the same basic assumption. That things which are permanent are more valuable."<BR/><BR/>If I'm hearing you're response right, the gist of it is encapsulated in these above 2 quotes. And really I can't argue with it except to point out that it hinges on one point: Is there a permanence, or not? I speak of eternity. Do I go on, or not? If not, you're right, I should seek, Zen style, to find my home and contentment in everything exactly as it is, including mortality and the impermanence of my life. Content to end, or at least not to know what happens after. And this is certainly achievable. <BR/><BR/>If a resurrection has been revealed, it would be arrogance NOT to desire it, and replace all current desires with this new desire. I mean, otherwise, why reveal it? In this scenario, I need a paradigm that roots me in that reality. Because it is only with such a paradigm that I will act in my current life in light of the eternal one. Now, to your point concerning health and wealth gospels, this becomes distorted and provokes an improper action. But only because the paradigm is rooted in "what I get" as bottom line, instead of "Jesus reigns." If I am not the center of my concept of heaven, I avoid the trap.<BR/><BR/>What I'm saying in this post is that, there does need to be action (responsibility question resolved) but it is to a different end than "death shaped" action. And different, it seems, then that which flows from the paradigm you've introduced. It is action compelled by the knowledge of eternity. There is a "Prepare the Way!" about this scenario. That is why proclamation is such a big deal. <BR/><BR/>Forgive me, but I do find much of the approach you're suggesting to be in a "super-spiritual" vein, achieving something thru disciplined meditation and a life of spiritual pursuit(you didn't say that, but I can't imagine it coming any other way)...like I said, I don't doubt that it works, it just seems completely inaccessible to normal, "unspiritual" people who don't spend years reading books and clearing their mind of desire.<BR/>This seems too lofty to be the gospel, because it limits the achievement to the Talented. It is out of reach of 99% of people. And I'm too much of a populist when it comes to Ultimate Reality.<BR/><BR/>I think bottom line for the issues you raise is: what exactly has been revealed? Depending on where you start, you will end up in different places.<BR/><BR/>I will definitely look up Wings of Desire.Natehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13081425114154607112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6584068046573737479.post-15787099415991885682008-12-01T13:14:00.000-05:002008-12-01T13:14:00.000-05:00I am alone in an empty house. It is quiet, except...I am alone in an empty house. It is quiet, except for the sound of my typing. It is snowing outside my window. Each of the snowflakes I see is different to a degree that I cannot fully understand. I am enjoying watching this for several reasons. It is the first real snowfall of the year, and I have not seen one like it in a long time. I will never in truth see this particular snowfall again, and though it reminds me of so many others, of people walking down the street shrouded in wool coats, of hot chocolate, of making snow angels and snowmen, and many other snowfalls from now may remind me of this one, I will never see this snowfall again. I will never be in this moment again. I must watch and appreciate it now, and so much of my appreciation for it is rooted in the fact that is will soon pass away. This moment, right now, will never, ever come again. People who are afraid of death decide to do so many things based on their fear, things which dull their senses, dull their emotions. We think, as you astutely point out, that we can store up permanence in our possessions to somehow make us believe that we are not going to die. In one of the most horrendous errors of the human condition, we think that things that last forever are somehow of greater value than things that are fleeting. Yet you are right when you say that nothing we gain does last forever. But it is wrong to say that this makes it less valuable. It is only less valuable when we use it to delude ourselves that we will last forever. And it seems to me that the description you lay out here of the heart of Christianity is in this sense completely in accord with the rest of what you call “The World” on this one (“The world” by the way is a gross overgeneralization in that the actual words could refer to <I>absolutely everything,</I> though I know you did not originate the term). You’ve just replaced all of the possessions that other people use with Jesus, yet both are operating on the same basic assumption. That <I>things which are permanent are more valuable.</I> It is the idea which tells us we can possess permanence: a home, a car, a family, possessions, collecting things from far and near in an effort to convince ourselves by the solidity of these things we ourselves will in some way endure. It is only the same to say that because Jesus will endure, we will also. It is no wonder that health and wealth gospels are so rampant, because in this essence, consumerism and Christianity are the same. They both provide us with illusions of permanence, of invulnerability, and of freedom which is somehow separate from the ebb and flow of the universe; the delusion that we are not wholly a part of “The World.” (How would your perception of Jesus change if you had no designs on him? If you had no quantifiable prize to be won? If you could see him for exactly who he is?) It is an arrogance for one, but moreover, it is the foolhardy assumption that things which endure are of greater value, and yet those things we accumulate, while they are for the most part good things, when we look at them in this light lose all value as what they are, because we see them only as a means to our own glorification. You may have loved ones who have died. You may never see them again. You will never be in this moment again. Thoughts of them will become memory and memory will become part of the way in which you see, the way in which you think, and are grounded to that which you hold dear. But still, they will never return. Is it not enough to say, “This is good. This thing I am in right now, life, the world, my own mind and heart, right now, with all that has come before, shaping what will be, is good” and appreciate it as it is? Appreciate it as the material of our existence, and know that because one day we ourselves will cease, we will not endure in our element, not our identity as we know it, but will leave only an imprint of who we were on the world, that we must fully appreciate this moment now, in all our vulnerability and impermanence? This, above all things should give us cause to value what we witness here and now, should give us a foundation of morality, but more importantly, a basic understanding of what it is which makes our lives and the lives of others worth living. All of what we find valuable in this life, <I>all</I> of it, is ephemeral. Beauty, love, connection, emotion, thought, truth, freedom, life; all of these will pass away as well. Is this not enough? It seems to me that Christianity in the sense you describe it here is only a shaky and vain extension of consumerism, and the desire to possess more and more. If we realize that even all the things we buy, and try to possess, are also going to vanish someday, must we then go farther down a rabbit hole of fear and presume with a perfect and historic arrogance that we ourselves are eternal things? Is this not self serving and at the same time self destructive? Is it not enough to see the world as it is, in front of us, both perfect and flawed at the same time, and accept it? If we go to such great lengths to deny our own death, what do we have left over when we have paid the price of believing in this immortality? If we cannot see and accept that we will die, cannot accept our own vulnerability, cannot accept our mortality, and cannot accept our fallibility, then what can possibly lay ahead save apathy towards all else that is real, all else that defines our lives, and all that can be appreciated about them? And if we put so much stock in any being or thing beyond ourselves, presuming that that being, that person, has already done it all, said it all, and we only need to accept it, then what does that do to our sense of responsibility? To those around us? To ourselves and to this moment in the universe? If I only have a few moments on this earth, then I am impelled, not frantically but with resignation, to do the best I can here. And the best I can do is very often to see it, to appreciate it, to interact with it in every unique moment. I cannot help but wonder why anyone could ever want more than this. It may be a flawed world, and a difficult life, but it is still perfect in that it is what it is, it is exactly the world. We must drink this cup which is put in front of us. Do not rob yourself by thinking you are better than it, will last longer than it, or are not a part of it in every fiber of your body, mind and soul. Do not devalue yourself in this way. You are more valuable, more beautiful, more perfect than eternal life. I have no idea what comes after this. But people you love will die. Things that you love will end. This is how things are. You will die. Is who you are less wonderful because of this? I hardly think so. (Please see “Wings of Desire,” one of the greatest movies ever made, which has the added bonus of showcasing Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds early on.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14139586718507355968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6584068046573737479.post-24041898089365284982008-11-27T21:45:00.000-05:002008-11-27T21:45:00.000-05:00you might find this interesting: http://news.yahoo...you might find this interesting: <BR/>http://news.yahoo.com/s/fool/20081125/bs_fool_fool/rx10197<BR/><BR/>even in trying to do good, the world just doesn't get why.Erin Hopehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04367012373432461819noreply@blogger.com